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@cel

One of the plots of land directly adjacent to spider farm has come on the market. It is also 2 acres, with 'Ōhi'a trees, Uluhe ferns, and strawberry guava trees. The listing price is $32K USD. Would anyone here be interested in pooling resources to cooperatively make an offer for it?

melekule-lot-sale.png

@mix

Exciting offer! Can you tell us more @cel?

Questions (probably naive) like :

  • is it in a lava flow area
  • why are the sections so narrow?
  • what are the dimensions-ish?
  • what are you allowed to build on the land
  • what does it have connected:
    • water
    • sewage
    • electricity
    • phone / internet

cc @mikey

@mix

sorry, I'm stuck with a mortgage so probably can't afford, but asking because I think those details might help others get a good idea.

do you have any aspirations for what you'd like to do with the land?

@andrestaltz

Sounds fun, I'd do it, but 32k$ is a bit too much even if I try to own just 10% of it. :/

@nichoth

I'm also interested in "owning" a land thing, but don't have much money, and I don't have experience with real estate, or purchasing something with other people, so can't contribute much at the moment.

@nanomonkey

Is there owner financing or do you need to come up with the whole 32k?

@substack

The dimensions are approximately 38m x 234m. The lots are narrow because the parceling dates from just before statehood as a way to get around not having to provide various services. There is electric power along the road and several providers have cell phone coverage but there are no other services. The land is empty fern and Ohi'a forest zoned agricultural. On agricultural land you are "allowed" to build unpermitted sheds up to a certain size for storage. There is little to no enforcement of planning codes in this and similar areas. There are many unpermitted structures in other lots in this neighborhood. The roads are private and there is a yearly road maintenance fee of $100 USD. The property taxes are around $200 USD yearly.

@Dominic

38*3200=8892 square meters, that is nealy one hectare (10k square meters). 32000/8892=3.59 $/m^2

@mttmyr

Interesting! After honeymooning in Hawaii a few years back I developed a short lived obsession with the Pahoa area of the Big Island. According to craigslist, overgrown jungle lots could go for as low as $5K and I dreamed up acquiring them via some kind of cryptocurrency crowd funding scheme. What got me excited was the idea that the cryptocurrency could gain intrinsic value due to it being backed by land.

That eventually morphed into the more general idea of creating an ICO backed platform coop to compete with airbnb... I was so into it I even made a landing page: https://habitatico.herokuapp.com :laughing:

@Dominic

I don't know about how coops work in the US, but my thinking about this idea in a previous thread e-land might be to structure as a coop, where you have transacting shares (1 member=1 vote) and then land shares (you can buy how ever much you want/need) maybe to get a "transacting share" you must own at least some threashold of landshare and you can have rules about what you must do to retain that share. Note: before a company becomes publically tradeable it is responsible for the maintaining the registry of share holders, and it's record is considered the legal title. Also, under the electronic transactions act, if all parties consent to making their contracts electronically (via a sufficiently available & reliable system, such as ssb) then that is legally valid.

It would be too costly to subdivide the property and hold title over a subsection, but it would be easy to hold a share of a coop/company that owned it, and still sell that share if you needed to.

@mix

oh, and it's ownership in America. I forgot Hawaii wasn't just a pacific island for a moment. (Not meant as slander, I'm just scared of sentences which have US and tax in the same phrase)

@happy0

@cel maybe up to 1% :P

What could we do with the land? :)

@cel

@happy0

  • eat guavas
  • sleep
  • engage in agriculture
  • use computers
  • solar power

What would you want to with it?

@nanomonkey

I don't know if there is owner financing. Would you like me to ask the listing agent?

@mwmeyer

Cool stuff. Pahoa is pretty close to here. Any plans to return to the island?

@amnovak

Could one follow along with the entire primitive technology YouTube series?

@happy0

@cel Since I'm pretty remote, if I was to chip in 1% or something, I guess I'd just like to see it being put to interesting / fun use :D (with videos / photos / blogs / scuttlebutt posts, etc)

Would I 'officially' own 1% of it? Or would 1 person have to own it 'officially'?

@noffle

very keen on such a space for naturo-techno-self hacking

@johnny

that's some expensive acres

@Dominic

@happy0 one "person" could own it, but if that person was actually a company or coop you could then own a 1% share of that legal person. (natural person = human, legal person = company etc)

@jer

I just have to ask, is it near a nuclear power plant, where an accident might produce some kind of superhero or supervillain?

@business-zach

I would be interested in a small percentage as well, and would love to see it being used as an off-grid common space: for the eating of guavas, and the gardening areas, the building of solarpowered shelters, and working together on good computer projects.

I am posting as business-zach but am also @Zach! .

@nanomonkey

As @angel noted, that is some expensive acreage if you're only interested in raw land. I've been looking at land in Northern California and you can find 40 acres for $30k-$60k easy. Hell, I found 1280 acres for $279k that I've been contemplating, Cottonwood creek, one of the last tributaries to the Sacramento river that hasn't been dammed runs through the property (salmon and trout still travel up it).

@substack

The location is pretty good. You can walk to the highway which has a public bus that can take you to the airport. You can also ride a bike to Pahoa, Kea'au or Orchidland general store for some supplies. The climate is extremely mild so you can live outside.

@mttmyr

In this particular case, structuring as a coop would make sense for record keeping / governance but there isn't enough space for land shares to be very useful I don't think

@mttmyr

@cel I'll definitely return, if for no other reason than an anniversary trip in a few years.

I don't know too much about timeshares, but could those ideas be put to use here?

$32,000 / 365 days = ~$88 / day

$1000 for 10 days of guaranteed lodging on the Big Island isn't too shabby. You'll probably pay more for any hotel.

The prospect of a #platformcoop type company that holds titles and facilitates benefits to members such as access to other time "shared" destinations could even start making this sound like a lucrative investment ;)

@johnny

the location is adjacent to wizardos Substack, Marina, and Celly Cel, so it's worth the fiat exchange and then some #thereGoesTheNeighborhood

@kumavis

@cel where did that map come from? what do the colors mean?

@kumavis

im interested in contributing : )

@cel

@kumavis the map is from here:
http://qpublic9.qpublic.net/qpmap4/map.php?county=hi_hawaii&parcel=160630510000&extent=-17257176+2220951+-17256584+2221827&layers=parcels+roads+parcel_sales+streetnum
The colors are to indicate when each parcel was last sold:
qpublic-legend.png

@jer i'm not aware of any nuclear power plants or supervillains, but there is reputed to be a goddess in the volcano.

@mwmeyer that is a cool idea, but maybe better to be applied elsewhere - we are interested here in a more communal or cooperative-based thing i think.

@amnovak @happy0 i could try to make and share some content.


currently, @mikey and i are committing to substantially cover the purchase cost. we are thinking to share title as individuals, until maybe making a cooperative legal entity for it later. if anyone else wants to join us in taking on responsibility for a large-ish portion, please private message us. we are also glad to accept smaller contributions as donations towards this spider farm expansion and/or future building projects.

i spoke with the listing agent and she is waiting for the seller to sign the listing agreement, which is why the lot is not yet on MLS, but she expects them to do so and we are planning to talk on monday at which time i plan to make an offer.

@dangerousbeans

this is really exciting - do you have a bitcoin or ethereum address we can send contributions to?

@mttmyr

@cel Yea, I could see the downsides to having to potentially treat half of your property as a an airbnb but what other benefits could be offered to contributors? By more of a communal thing, do you mean you are looking for members that are more able to be fully engaged ( onsite ) with the land?

@cel

@dangerousbeans thank you for asking. addresses for contributions:

BTC: 18wKhzdvoNyffGpZLeUzS4Jk1wTofWtXQk
ETH: 0xf6ec26b9a249f426b821ecef2f14deaeaeb5c7c7
BCC: 1CDcvhBaQqxgj899RbD2FGYXCzVaHEgWZx
ETC: 0xab339E42B32e1b8A11ed102099Ed01Ce09387444
LTC: LLAtf3JFF6YMPVbBdNNLdFHsCrGUbV7SDH
FAIR: fVuBmPmjUTj8ZrYRmwVG6XN5JAf6LEEjGh

@mwmeyer i don't know. am i failing at cooperation?

what other benefits could be offered to contributors

  • video of gecko licking guava juice
  • video of neighborhood dogs barking
  • video of Tux the cat doing cat things
  • dedicate a poop bucket emptying-out in your honor
  • mail you a piece of string that i find on the road while walking to town
  • you pick a coffee shop somewhere on the island, and i'll go to it and tell you how good the coffee is
  • ditto for vegan gelato shop
  • i could try to find the Puna Revolutionaries, read some of their anarchist literature, and tell you what i learn from it
  • attempt to open a coconut with a tool of your choice
  • attempt to grow a plant of your choosing
@mikey

i'm excited for the opportunity to expand #spider-farm and the dreams associated with it. thanks @cel for the invitation to participate, i'm happy to share resources i have available to me simply because of my privilege.

By more of a communal thing, do you mean

@mwmeyer if i was to say "a more communal or cooperative-based thing", i would mean: i want to maximize high-trust cooperative relationships that benefit community and commons, minimize low-trust transactional relationships that benefit capital.

a timeshare model does coordinate a group of people to cooperatively share a common resource, however the method is to simplify the relationship into a very rigid economic transaction: you can stay at this property for X days per year in exchange for an initial cost of Y dollars and recurring cost of Z dollars per year (i'm guessing this is how it works, correct me if i'm wrong). the benefit of this approach is that you don't have to trust your peers much, since the terms are so clear. if they can't afford the initial cost, or the recurring cost, or mess up the property during their visit, you are isolated from their misfortune. but in my opinion it's missing any sense of community, any sense of shared human connection (empathy), any sense of a truly common resource. this all being said, a timeshare model is great when people all want what it has to offer, but i don't think we want what it offers.

@mix

@cel that reward scheme is fantastic. It's made my afternoon :heart:

@mttmyr

@cel quite enticing, I love gelato! :laughing:

@ktorn

Like I mentioned before in @dominic 's e-gold thread, I'm up for joining a land coop.

I have to say that US land is not my preferred choice, but more important than location is the people who are in it, so for that reason count me in!

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